Why is it so complicated and why do so few explain it?

I am just dumbfounded when I tell people with vertical shoulder turns that have paths too far in to out think leveling out to move the path left is over the top.

If you have some tilt away from the target and don’t move your head laterally toward the target in transition, you shoulder turn can’t take you OTT….period.

The issue is when beginners and hacks rotate over the top, the cure is to swing to right field, not to fix the body angles.

So you steadily evolve from an over the top slice, to an under plane hook and block.


It’s this simple. Shoulders move at a 90* angle to spine on downswing, add some spine tilt away from the target that’s created by the slight shift into the left side while head doesn’t move target ward….shallow, from the inside and not stuck.

As a side note, my shoulder is getting better.





  1. Don Lissen

    “Shoulders move at a 90º angle to spine on downswing.”

    I’m going to give you something to think about. You like Plummer & Bennett. I’ll agree with you that they’re smart guys and they’ve studied the swing, a lot.

    You can find Mike Bennett on Youtube, explaining that during the swing, “the spine moves all over the place.” So, how can you use something as a reference (the spine), if it’s moving all over the place?

    In order to use the spine as a reference, you’d have to first do what Kostis says, preserve the spine angle. There’s a Youtube video of Kostis narrating a Luke Donald video–and despite Kostis’s reference line, you can clearly see that Donald’s spine angle is not preserved, thus disproving his own demonstration.

    I’m suggesting an alternate scenario. High handicaps don’t use their body enough. If they try to restrict something in order to use it as a reference, that might make it worse. In theory, it might be better to fix the coordination than fix how it looks…and then it would look right.

    • Monte Scheinblum

      Don, you exactly made my point.

      I agree spine all over the place.

      I used those words as a reference point for descriptive purposes.

      When teaching I use the verbiage, “Shoulder more out and less down….or more horizontal…or more around.”

      If I used those terms in a blog post people would ask what context.

      • Don Lissen

        “Shoulder more out and less down…”

        That sounds better. Using a shoulder as a reference or a “feel” can work. For one thing, Hunter Mahan does it…if he had anything to do with his article on Golf.com. Moe Norman talked about it too.

        But, a problem could arise if someone tries to turn a shoulder with that shoulder. The shoulder is the most mobile joint in your body, and a shoulder can “turn” without body movement–in effect faking a turn. Fred Couples gave a demo of that on Golf Channel’s “Playing Lessons with the Pro.” It may still be on Youtube.

  2. Bob34

    FWIW, I ‘think’ another way to describe what you’re talking about is to make sure the left shoulder seperates from the chin during transition. I’m not advocating using the left shoulder for power just to be aware that it seperates from the chin. I can rotate my shoulders properly but sometimes in my “bump” during transition, I’ll bump my whole left side forward which causes me to lose my axis tilt, come over the top & hit a weak shot. I know that ball flight happens because I feel my chin moving with my left shoulder “head moving laterally” instead of seperating from from my chin.

    • Bob34

      Sorry, I totally scrwed up the last sentence above, my chin doesn’t seperate from my chin it seperates from my shoulder…

  3. Paul

    This definitely needs a video explanation.

  4. goinlow

    Hey Monte,

    I’ve been prone to coming over the top a little bit and one thing I picked up from your wedge video was the “feel” of leading with the right elbow. Wow, immediate improvement with my wedges so I started using that feel with all my clubs, shallowed out my downswing and snyched up my turn. So if my shoulder turn is a little off in my backswing it doesn’t seem to be a big deal. Thanks!

  5. Doug

    Monte — Why is it always right shoulder to the ball? Won’t the thought of “left shoulder away from the ball” achieve the same results?

  6. Roadrunner

    Monte, took the basic idea of the long pole but used a stronger rod benind my shoulders. It had two extra effects, first it keeps the shoulders back and avoids slumping at address, and it also allows me to feel where the right elbow is. Only way to describe the position of the rod is behind shoulders with arms making a sort of W shape.

    Went to show someone the idea and also showed them them your video from this thread. When it finished there were a range of suggested videos on shoulder plane, tilt and turn.

    This one caught my eye and we downloaded it.

    Starts off doing what you suggest, then suddenly swaps to my alteration as the idea grabs him. Love the way the wasted $200 suddenly becomes the best visual confirmation of what should be happening for me, plus a physical one for the actual user.

    Mocked up a very basic station using a large hula hoop plus fixings and welcome to the idea of spine tilt plus right shoulder down and out towards the ball…….

    I know feel isn’t real but it feels like the right elbow leads with the right arm following, with a sort of tenpin bowling action, much more underhand than I have previously felt.

    Managed to get a weighted bar to see the effect of having to move that. The only way I can get it to follow the correct route is to initiate the transition sequence with the inside top of my right thigh, it adds a bit more tilt before the shoulders start to move along the original path. The stretch in that right groin area as I move into impact is something I have rarely experienced before.

    Given your dodgy shoulder probably not a good idea to try the bar behind shoulders yourself, it certainly highlights any lack of mobility in that area. Maybe you can get someone to try it or others on here can give it a whirl. Feel free to rip any or all off this post apart, I am used to working in environments where that happens as a matter of routine.

  7. daveydo

    Yet again. Thank you Monte. This Bobby Lopez video reinforces my favorite “The Perfect Shoulder Turn”


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