Tiger and the S&T hybrid of Foley

Call the Foley swing that he is teaching Tiger whatever you want. It stinks.

I see people nearing an excitement level reserved for sexual arousal over how perfect some of his positions are, but being perfectly on the elbow plane at P2-P6 doesn’t mean a thing if body parts don’t match up because you manipulated the club there through repetition. How often do I say you can’t zero out positions because the golf swing is a dynamic, reactive process.

Let’s say a high powered computer decides the optimum way to take turn 3 at Indianapolis is at 223 MPH and the driver must turn his steering wheel to 10:41. How many deaths would there be if each driver decided to manipulate to those numbers by starting at his hands, steering wheel and speedometer?

They would use those numbers and change the way the FEEL out the turn.

S&T and all forms of it are a steep swing designed to get players with little to no skill and athletic ability a proper angle of attack without them having to steepen the club with their hands.

You don’t teach that to guy like Tiger. He is too steep. If the fact he often takes divots large enough to bury Dave Pelz in isn’t enough evidence…how about the fact he just missed his first cut of the year after spending the first two days hitting fat wood shots?!?!?!?!

Tiger needs to take this swing, put it in a paper bag, light it on fire, drop it on the front porch of Hank Haney and ring the doorbell.

Maybe that’s his new name. I can hear the guy on the first tee at Torrey Pines. Nice double entendre.

“Now on the tee, playing out of Desperation, former winner of 4 consecutive majors. Now can only win the Zipper Open…please welcome Chunking Woods.”

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24 Comments

  1. jaybee

    FWIW, after having experimented with that move and such a coach myself, I think the key difference between his and those others’ (e.g. Bertges, Damore) ‘modern’ golf swing approach and yours is their preference for a lack of tilt at impact, and that mainly in order to take the left side of the course out of play.
    They advocate a lateral shift of the whole left side (shirt logo) to the target as the first downswing move while you prefer the (hip) bump and that might steepen the shaft (too much) but shall prevent hanging back and getting stuck.
    Additionally, Tiger/Foley seem to want to dive/’compress’ in the downswing- maybe that’s the real inconcistency problem in such a swing, DK.
    But as long as he swears, spits and throws his clubs I am not going to consider him a golfer anyway, not even if he brakes Nicklaus’ record or started to wear cargo shorts…

    Reply
  2. Gina

    Tiger Woods is the #2 player in the world… its funny to me when people critique his swing …umm what are you ranked.. thought so.

    Rory is the #1 player in the world… did he make the cut this past weekend… new swing coach? come on.

    Reply
    • Monte Scheinblum

      What I am ranked is not the point. What Tiger is ranked is not the point either.

      Tiger’s standard for himself is how he plays in majors, so that is the standard I judge him by. His performance in majors last year was the worst of his career.

      Plus, this isn’t even a post about Tiger, it’s about the Golf industry teaching people perfect golf swings that don’t match.

      Reply
      • Gina

        The ranking was to point out that Tiger had success in 2012. OK he didnt win a major at age 36. well neither did Jack …. the reality is tiger will probably play less tournaments each year.. he will never again dominate the sport like he did at his prime. ill enjoy watching probably one of the best to ever play the game. Can he win another major going forward? probably… will he break the majors record.. probably not… but i wont put the blame on his swing or coach…Tiger knows better than anyone what he can and can not do…. and what swing could work for him or not.

        maybe he makes a a change…. either way ill be there to watch what happens and wish him the best.

        Reply
        • Monte Scheinblum

          Very thoughtful response and I agree with everything OU said but this.

          “Tiger knows better than anyone what he can and can not do…. and what swing could work for him or not.”

          The past has proven that to be incorrect. The present as well.

          Reply
      • Robert Johansson

        “Tiger knows better than anyone what he can and can not do…. and what swing could work for him or not.”

        “The past has proven that to be incorrect. The present as well.”

        Tiger is pretty much clueless.
        3 years to learn a swing and still mess it up?
        3 years and it still dont work as it should work.
        If the timing and its to complicated not even a player since before he could walk can do it.
        The Foley approach is a flawed one.
        People believe the players knows so much but they are as lost as their nearest golf swing theory.

        I had to cut away 20 years of swing theory for the guy I coach as pretty much everything he was taught sucked. Now he hit it longer and outdriving his peers is never a bad thing though and he is more accurate and its way way easier on the body for him and goes agaisnt the swing theory stuff but its way simpler to do and replicate and allows consistency to happen which Tiger cant do atm.

        I find Foley good as a coach to instill confidence in the player BUT not as a swing guy.

        Reply
  3. Brett

    Monte, I think this might be your best post yet. Love it.

    Reply
  4. woody

    “…doesn’t mean a thing if body parts don’t match up because you manipulated the club there through repetition. How often do I say you can’t zero out positions because the golf swing is a dynamic, reactive process…”

    Total BINGO on that.

    “…he just missed his first cut of the year…”

    That was an awful penalty ruling, which unfairly caused TW to miss the cut. By “sand,” the rule must have meant “an area maintained as sand, such as a bunker or waste area.” All soil is composed of sand, clay, and organic matter. How much sand is SAND? 80%? 75%? 60%? 51%?

    The fact that the ground under a vine-covered area had a noticable component of sand is total B.S. This must have been a payback for the boulder ruling…or the parking lot ruling…

    Reply
    • jaybee

      Unless I missed a rule change, doesn’t the embedded ball rule (25-2?) say closely mown area only anyway? If so, shouldn’t he a) never have been given or considered being given a free drop and b) just have been given a one stroke penalty for/as he declared the ball unplayable as it lay under the vine?

      Reply
      • woody

        “he declared the ball unplayable as it lay under the vine?”

        Since that would have been his next step–had the rules official been present–it would make sense.

        So, because he didn’t call it a penalty (unplayable) drop instead of a free (embedded) drop…he’s screwed, even though he apparently hadn’t yet signed an incorrect card when they notified him.

        I’m not sure why he couldn’t have just erased and corrected the “incorrect” score for that hole, as Dennis Johnson did at Whistling Straits.

        Reply
      • woody

        Why do I alway call him Dennis when his name is Dustin? I blame the Boston Celtics.

        Reply
  5. Andrew from Belgium

    The European Tour uses the standard local rule to allow a free drop through the green, except in a sandy area that is not closely mown (App 1, Part B, 4). The course was in the desert. Does it not seem likely that the ball is embedded in a sandy area?

    Tiger was simply careless – he is usually pretty careful with the rules and is rumoured to know them very well.

    Anyway his swing with the woods was quite horrible, I am surprised he did not break a shaft and, by the way, he owes the field a drink for failing to get past the ladies’ tee box on one drive 🙁

    Reply
    • woody

      “course was in the desert. Does it not seem likely that the ball is embedded in a sandy area?”

      –My point, exactly. Sand was the predominant soil component. So what? Is there something magic about sand?

      Take a look at it, 53 seconds into this video. If a disinterested person were asked to describe the area that TW was standing in, would he say, “TW is standing in sand”? More likely, they would say that he was standing in a viny area.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHIvvDpTgxk (2:13) Abu Dhabi “sand”

      I give credit to TW for manning-up afterward and just accepting it. It’s like an umpire calling a strike a ball, or an NBA ref calling a charge a block. It is what it is, no point in arguing and getting a fine.

      I also give TW credit for hitting the worst pro tee shot I’ve ever seen:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g3E_ezvK94 (0:31) bad tee shot

      Reply
      • Andrew from Belgium

        There is nothing magic about sand except that the rule has a specific exception for balls plugged in sandy areas. Nobody claimed the rule was sensible, it is just as it is.

        Indeed the shot was ghastly, although I do remember Faldo skying a 3 wood off the tee at Wentowrth (17 or 18 in World matchplay years ago). Did not go 70 metres. Woods’ was definitely uglier.

        Reply
  6. meateater

    Great post monte. What hope is there for the rest of us if the greatest player in history can’t get past mediocre instruction?

    Tiger should do one of three things. One, swallow his pride and go crawling back to Butch. Two, hook up with the guru from Hawaii, Kelvin M. Three, take a spin on the Monte bus. Monte would be the perfect coach for Tiger in the same way he is the perfect coach for Frank L. Been there, done that, know what doesn’t work and why. Plus, it would be good for Tiger to work with a guy who can hit it past him by 50 yards. Whatever he does, this Foley horror must end and quickly.

    Reply
      • woody

        “the guru from Hawaii, Kelvin”

        –Kelvin has it part right: golf does not have the proper terminology to describe what’s happening.

        However, making it too complicated is not a good fix for something that’s too simplistic.

        Reply
  7. Jason

    I wonder what it will get to take Tiger to get off the Foley Bus? Is he so committed right now to the point where he can’t get off without hurting his ego and admitting this was not the right move for him? Is his problem not the instruction, and just that he’s physcially limited right now preventing him from changing his swing, or working as much as it would take him to truly change? Or is he just getting old…and not the golfer he once was? (Still better than even most tour players)

    Reply
    • Mike Divot

      The fact that he won majors with the Haney swing shows how effin’ good he is a golfer.

      He’s still got wins in him because of his sheer talent.

      But Father Time waits for no man ….

      Reply
  8. Calvin

    Ring the doorbell and run like hell.

    Great sentence Meateater. If #1 gets bad instruction we be in deep s###.

    Reply
  9. Mike Z

    “Tiger needs to take this swing, put it in a paper bag, light it on fire, drop it on the front porch of Hank Haney and ring the doorbell.”

    I almost spit water all over my laptop when I read this. Good show.

    Reply
  10. Mike

    Yeah my swing sucks.

    Best Regards,

    Leader of the 2013 Farmers Insurance Open

    Reply
    • Monte Scheinblum

      I will say the same thing I have said dozens of times. I said the same thing under Haney and was proven right.

      Tiger judges himself on majors and beating Jack’s record. He can win regular tour events if he copied Furyk’s swing.

      He had the worst majors of his career last year and he will continue to struggle in majors if he swings like this. You can hit it sideways and win at Torrey Pines.

      You can hate on my comments all you want, it’s your right. Just like its my right to say this swing stinks until he wins a major with it.

      Reply
  11. coops

    his driver swing sucks enitre nearby universes into its vortex of awfulness.

    Monte, I’d love you to just come out with it over on golfwrx… ‘is stack and tilt really all that bad?’… just an ‘opinion’ 😉 ====>”S&T and all forms of it are a steep swing designed to get players with little to no skill and athletic ability a proper angle of attack without them having to steepen the club with their hands.”

    Excellent.

    Reply

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