Reverse tilting from over rotating the shoulders

See if you spot what I mean. It’s a common problem and like poor eye line, it’s something no one talks about. It something different than a reverse pivot you see in beginners and very high handicappers…as it mostly happens to lower handicappers.

I’ll talk specifics tomorrow.




  1. jaybee

    IMHO: an X factor victim

  2. calvin

    Interesting that only 1/3 or less of your shaft is target side of the ball. and the other guy has all but the grip target side. He has almost no tilt and no room and you have both.

  3. Blake

    You look to be turning into a braced right leg and he looks to be turning flat in a barrell.

  4. woody

    I’ll quote another guru to you:

    “Not everyone looks the same when they swing–even using the same technical principles. This is because of variations between any two people in weight, strength, agility, athletic aptitude, etc.” I’d add suppleness, relative arm and torso length, shoulder width, body type…and more etc.

    It’ll be interesting to see if these are cosmetic differences… or real. The other guy has a narrower stance, and is using a different club.

  5. Copperjeff

    Hi all, and Monte,
    The random golfer has no tilt behind the ball. He has turned in a way so that his front shoulder is turned towards his front foot instead of his rear. It seems like to me in an effort to make a full turn and get his club to parallel at the top, he has turned so far as to pull himself target-wards. From this spot he would have to make a massive move with his lower body to get himself unstuck from this position. All of the speed and power in his swing would be gone before he got anywhere near the ball. I would also venture a guess that this golfer would start to run out of room to turn by the time he gets near impact since he has to unwind a lot just to get to a spot where he can swing freely.
    Monte on the other hand has turned in a way to keep his secondary tilt, notice the spine angle away from the target and has turned his lead shoulder over the rear foot. This would allow space for his arms to fall and as he leads with the lower body he creates more room without losing speed. Like monte says, do nothing to slow down the arms.
    Anyway that is just my thoughts. Great topic Monte, I cant wait to hear you expound on it.

    • Monte Scheinblum

      I will just cut and paste this and I don’t even have to write anything tomorrow.

    • Geoff Dickson

      Take home message for me: Monte has turned his lead shoulder over the rear foot.

      • woody

        This might not be a keeper. Going way back to Anthony Kim’s GC “Playing Lesson With the Pro,” his instructor told him to feel like he was trying to get his left shoulder over his right knee.

        For whatever reason, after a notable early career, Kim has dropped off the map.

    • woody

      “a massive move with his lower body to get himself unstuck from this position. All of the speed and power in his swing would be gone before he got anywhere near the ball.”

      –A massive move with the lower body does not sacrifice speed & power. I call my first witness, Ben Hogan: (1:14)

      Here’s what people don’t get: Hogan was in no way leaving his upper body behind. As Monte says, it was ALREADY behind.

      If you want a Tour type swing, it is a fundamental error to separate upper & lower body, in your mind. Pros use their whole body. (Maybe that’s why they can’t explain it very well.)

      • Monte Scheinblum

        Apples and Oranges.

        You are correct in what you say, but so is he.

      • Copperjeff

        I am not disagreeing with you, the lower body definitly supplies speed and power to the golf swing. However, if you continue to read, I also wrote that when Monte leads with his lower body he is creating MORE room and speed. The issue is that the unnamed golfer in the pictures has no efficient path back to the ball. He has two choices from the position he is in. He can either make a big move with his lower body just to gain back some of the room he lost during his backswing, or he can pull the handle and swing steeply and on an out to in path. From the position that he is in if he tries to drop the club on plane his arms will run into his lower body. If he clears his hips enough to make room it is necessarily going to take a large lower body movement in order to get room, because again, he lost so much room in his backswing. Also, the lower body has to move quickly to get out of the way otherwise the hands will not have the time to drop until he is OTT. This big quick move is going to leave his hands so far behind that the unnamed golfer will be stuck and out of sync, all the while he has used a tremendous amount of energy to just get his downswing started. Or, again he can just go straight into an OTT move and pull his hands out then down to the ball.

        On the other hand in Monte’s swing, he is supplying very little energy to rerouting his body and club, and instead can use most of the effort to simply unwind quicker, leading with the lower body. His hips dont have to supply the energy to get his upper body back into position.

        So like I said, I am not disagreeing with you but basically Monte and the unnamed golfer are using their hips for two different functions. (If the unnamed golfer is making any attempt to get back on plane instead of just swinging OTT. Which if he is swinging OTT then his hips arent supplying much, if any, speed or power.)

        Sorry for the disertation, just trying to make clear points. Still loving the discussion though.

        • Monte Scheinblum

          Jeff, you obviously know what you are talking about.

  6. David

    Is that an early extension waiting to happen? Caused by an effort to turn more and keep the left foot planted which moved the hips forward.

  7. mukster

    That is interesting. Just took two screenshots of myself from some swing videos I did a while ago and I look like the guy on the right, both with PW and with driver. I ended last season as a 9.4 , so I guess I fit the bill. Would love to hear what tomorrow brings.

  8. Chris

    Wow, just looked at a video of my swing and paused at the top. I have some reverse tilt going on…. Looking forward to the rest of this…

  9. phil

    This is the main swing fault my teaching pro noticed in my last lesson, so I’ll be really interested in any suggestions you may have about curing it. What I’ve been working on is hinging the club more aggressively during the backswing, so that my swing feels “finished” by the time I get to the top and I don’t try to keep on going, which brings on that reverse pivot (I don’t look quite as “collapsed” as the random golfer, I’m guessing he is an extreme case ) .. all a bit of a guess though..

  10. FFDan

    After looking at video I wasn’t surprised…I look like the guy on the right. Good stuff Monte.

  11. Chris

    Hi Monte,

    I’m looking for a drill to help me get a feeling of this position, which of your YouTube videos should I check out?



  12. FFDan

    I hit a few balls and filmed a few swings trying this… definitely less “flippy”. Not perfect looking impact but my left arm was not breaking down as much at impact…and the ball flight was nice. I like this!

  13. D Nelson

    Wow has that been my problem all of these years??? Did some practice swings and I see what you mean, my club was always traveling way inside, dropped under plane and went in to out huge so I had to flip it to get it to go straight(sometimes). Now I feel where I have room, the club is still out in front of my head and know I can just turn and unwind down the proper plane. I am so glad I read this. Thank You

  14. dogballz

    Could an effect be upper body slide towards target in downswing?


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