More on leading with right elbow

People have told me that they get feeling like the club is wide open, too far from inside, etc.

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn. Most people don’t do this. If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact. This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can’t zero out impact positions and path. You have two opposing forces creating everything…which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good. He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm. They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion. He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen…and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention. I have seen few who understand it…even fewer who talk about it.

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15 Comments

  1. allen lane

    Monte
    I would be interested in your take on what Australian Professional Bradley Hughes is discussing – is it the same thing. ( you can pick him up on the web )

    Reply
    • Eagle006

      I was going to post the same thing. This is VERY similar to what Bradley has been talking about for a long time, mainly in his thread on ‘Secret in the Dirt’ and his Youtube videos (GolfAus). Shallowing the club, rotated forearms, clubface open preserving range of motion into the strike, turning hard left with the pivot post impact, working against ground forces which provide support for the swing and club. Tons and tons of good stuff there. As you both point out, the swing is made up of opposing pressures and forces.

      Anyway thanks for the video Monte. Very good.

      Reply
  2. Tom McNamara

    Not sure of which video (probably bump, dump, turn) but you mentioned what feels or looks like a dead position, but if you continue to turn, it’s a perfect impact position. After a year, I finally realized why you started me out chipping…to keep the right elbow moving and hands ahead of the ball. I haven’t hit many full swing buckets recently, but half swings on the pitching range are finally paying off. Now that I’m not blading pitch shots, the feeling of the right elbow chasing the belly button and hand ahead is translating to my full swing. Does that sound about right? I just started breaking 80 after I figured out what you showed me last year… I’m a slow learner! Lol

    Reply
  3. erudd0h

    Assume you mean the left arm rotates counter clockwise? As you are turning?

    Reply
  4. Andrew in Belgium

    Ahh! Now we get all the way back to Plane and Release by Feel! If we do what you say here it is exactly the same as the PaRbF concept. Very nice.

    I was getting a bit all over the shop yesterday – went out this morning and hit a few balls just doing the plane and release and noticed that my right elbow was the natural leader of the right side. The full turn and roll of the wrists comes naturally with PaRbF (I think I prefer PARF for your marketing video!).

    Hmm the DVD says: Just PARF it and gain 25 yards in the middle of the fairway!

    Reply
    • paulp

      What DVD are you referring to? I’d like to get it. Thanks.

      Reply
    • jaybee

      Just my 5cts, as I went through that fault before, now try to implement what Monte suggests and found the video you posted to be helpful for that and equally true.
      When people hear ‘lead with the right elbow’ and are aware of Hogan’s images,
      they either do this exaggerated move she describes here, or hang back or get OTT.
      When I looked at Monte’s DTL LD swing and compared it to mine, I noticed that his right elbow is much further down, and also more at and in, meaning almost touching his kidney (if you look at a Hogan pic it seems similarly low, at and in), than mine- which is higher up, more away and out, so touching my lower outer front ribcage- in the TS/DS.
      To me, the translation of that idea is that the right elbow leads by going down- by which it also facilitates ‘dumping’ (of the arms)- at and (stay) in- by which it facilitates ‘bumping’ (of the lower body/hips) and, importantly, adds tilt, and prevents OTT.
      That, and in particular the added tilt, also shallows the club, but starting position at the top, proper arm rotation and keeping the forearm/right uper arm angle more or less the same rather than increasing it- as a handle pull or otherwise created OTT move will do- are also important to achieve that.
      So, in a nutshell, if my interpretation of Monte’s advise is correct, she actually does and suggests to do the same thing here. That race with the belly button starts thereafter, from that now lower, more tucked in right elbow- and in general more tilted- position, when the ‘turn’ takes over everything.

      Reply
  5. Tom McNamara

    I guess Montes pitching days would have been a lot shorter if he led his throw with the ball instead of the elbow! I wish golf was that intuitive…

    Reply
  6. Copperjeff

    I think the big picture of the swing (specifically the transition and downswing) just clicked for me. Its amazing how all of the pieces fit together beautifully. (I apologize because this may turn into another diatribe trying to explain what i mean)

    What I think I now know is that in order to properly apply maximum force to the golf ball, the body turn and arms must “fire” from about waist high in the downswing. In order to accomplish those “firings” , the club must be shallow. during a proper release, The arms will rotate counter-clockwise, which will in turn steepen the club.

    Now if we back up to the transition where we “bump and dump” we find that the bump gives us the needed space for the arms with added tilt. The dump portion lowers the arms and allows the right elbow to lead. This of course shallows the club. From here the body and arms can freely rotate into impact.

    If we back up even further to the backswing we find out why its so important. We just saw how arms need to “dump” in transition to shallow the club. If the arms need to dump and the club needs to shallow, then we can’t exactly have low arms and a flat club in the backswing now can we?

    I hope this made some sense and I am correct in my thinking. Looking at the swing a little “backwards” really helped me see all of these pieces fitting together.

    If I am completely off base Monte, please feel for to correct my thinking.

    Thanks!

    Reply
  7. Max

    So Hogan’s “Poetry in motion” move isn’t a massive manipulation but Tiger’s “Poultry in motion” move is?

    Reply
  8. Golfnut Ian

    Poultry in motion LOL. Clucking eggcellent!

    Reply
  9. neil

    Thought this should get a bump. Great tip, and has helped alot!

    …and tiger reference. Monte wish you could get him to come to the Ohio event. I bet you could straighten him out! cheers.

    Reply
  10. Zach

    Monte, older blog post I know, but would this help me cure my occasional shank. Right now going through a big swing adjustment where i am more on plane compared to my flat swing/over the top/cast swing? Sometimes I shank it because I think I have the proper backswing but I still have traces of my over the top move from my old swing? Would this help?

    thanks

    Reply
    • Monte Scheinblum

      Possibly. Sorry to be vague. I possible to know as what you feel and what you are really doing are likely different.

      Reply

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